[FRIAM] new math of complexity

steve smith sasmyth at swcp.com
Thu Jun 13 15:42:10 EDT 2024


Up to some strong interpretations of QM "physics is deterministic but 
not pre-stateable" is the ground I usually stand on.   I don't need to 
invoke non-determinism to believe in open-ended complexity...   
combinatoric (roughly factorial) arithmetic overwhhelms counting, 
additive, multiplicative, even exponential arithmetic?

I am very sympathetic with your (daveW) conceit that evolution can do 
things which engineering generally has not, though I think it is the 
simple amount of (combinatoric) complexity of the "search" algorithm?   
I would claim that our technosphere is significantly "evolved" but on 
top of our "engineering" efforts, though some might argue that with the 
exception of a few exceptionally significant "engineers" like Archimedes 
and Da Vinci, most of our technological development before the age of 
enlightenment or the industrial revolution, actually was an evolutionary 
process (cut and try).

It might be a coincidence but I just happened to dial up the latest Lex 
Fridman interview with Sara Walker ( 
https://search.asu.edu/profile/1731899 ) who some may know through her 
role as associate director of the ASU-SFI Center for Biosocial Complex 
Systems.

She starts out with simple Materialist/Vitalist contrasts but alludes 
(nearly) to Marcus latest snark: /"//Simulate from first principles: 
//https://www.vasp.at///"/

/
/

On 6/13/24 7:11 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> Naive, but honest question:
>
> Can a computer program be "complex?"  Jochen seems to assert so, 
> /"Every developer knows that each piece of code which is added makes 
> the system more complex."/ I would say no, it only makes it more 
> complicated.
>
> My answer is partially based on the fact that code must execute on a 
> deterministic machine and the code itself (at least its compiled self) 
> is nothing more than a virtual machine, still a deterministic system. 
> Even the source code is a context free grammar, so none of the things 
> that make natural language complex (context sensitivity, metaphor, 
> interpolation) prevail. Otherwise the code would not work?
>
> A secondary motivation for asking, I am working on an extended 
> monograph/book on how to intentionally 'evolve' complex systems like a 
> business and the software that supports it,or ULS ( 
> https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/library/ultra-large-scale-systems-the-software-challenge-of-the-future/ 
> ), i.e., systems that *_cannot_* be "engineered."
>
> davew
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2024, at 5:30 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>>
>> Emergence as a kind of “software in the natural world"? If we mean 
>> code by it, then yes, certainly. Every developer knows that each 
>> piece of code which is added makes the system more complex. Therefore 
>> we usually try to keep it simple. For biological systems it is the 
>> DNA code. For cultural systems it is the hidden code people do not 
>> want to talk about because everything related to it is sacred (at 
>> least for the group which it defines). The knights templar had their 
>> own code, the order of the cistercians, the Franciscans and the other 
>> religious orders and organizations as well.
>>
>>
>> Cults and sects have their code ( which can be simple political 
>> slogans such as "Make Your Country Great Again", "Build the wall" and 
>> "Lock them up" or simply "Do not criticize the supreme leader"). 
>> Criminal organizations have their code. Ideologies and political 
>> parties have their code. Behind every complex organism or 
>> organization there seems to be some form of code or DNA that 
>> generates and maintains it.
>>
>>
>> Whenever something is happening in nature it is either supper or 
>> pairing time. Obviously  because the underlying "selfish" code has 
>> created bodies which have the directive to maintain and replicate 
>> themselves. If we look at cultural systems, for instance at political 
>> conventions or at religious congregations, then we notice that every 
>> time something is really happening at a larger scale is that the code 
>> becomes active. People come together to read or express laws, rules, 
>> guidelines and policies.
>>
>>
>> So I would say yes, if there is a secret then it is the code. 
>> Definitely. Is there a new math for it? IMO it is quite hard to 
>> formulate the expression of such a code in general mathematically. 
>> For example how can you describe mathematically if the speech of a 
>> president or party leader or priest has bigger consequences or not? 
>> It is at least as complicated as calculating a path integral in 
>> Quantum Field Theory.
>>
>>
>> What might be possible is to calculate a probability how a group 
>> behavior changes depending how frequent a rule is read, remembered 
>> and expressed.
>>
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org>
>> Date: 6/12/24 8:05 PM (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>> <Friam at redfish.com>
>> Subject: [FRIAM] new math of complexity
>>
>> Speaking of emergence, any takes on Phillip Ball's article in Quanta?
>>
>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/
>>
>> I really liked his summary of the current non-explanations for 
>> emergence, but I haven't had time to read further.
>>
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