[FRIAM] new math of complexity
steve smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Thu Jun 13 15:50:06 EDT 2024
> In a similar vein:
>
> https://xkcd.com/2945/
>
> -- rec --
Russel Munroe is so prolific and self-documenting, I wouldn't be
surprised if he hasn't (somewhere) documented/attributed the myriad
influences:
Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 9:49 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> Simulate from first principles: https://www.vasp.at/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Prof David
> West <profwest at fastmail.fm>
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 13, 2024 6:11 AM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] new math of complexity
> Naive, but honest question:
>
> Can a computer program be "complex?" Jochen seems to assert so,
> /"Every developer knows that each piece of code which is added
> makes the system more complex."/ I would say no, it only makes it
> more complicated.
>
> My answer is partially based on the fact that code must execute on
> a deterministic machine and the code itself (at least its compiled
> self) is nothing more than a virtual machine, still a
> deterministic system. Even the source code is a context free
> grammar, so none of the things that make natural language complex
> (context sensitivity, metaphor, interpolation) prevail. Otherwise
> the code would not work?
>
> A secondary motivation for asking, I am working on an extended
> monograph/book on how to intentionally 'evolve' complex systems
> like a business and the software that supports it,or ULS (
> https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/library/ultra-large-scale-systems-the-software-challenge-of-the-future/ ),
> i.e., systems that *_cannot_* be "engineered."
>
> davew
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2024, at 5:30 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>
> Emergence as a kind of “software in the natural world"? If we
> mean code by it, then yes, certainly. Every developer knows
> that each piece of code which is added makes the system more
> complex. Therefore we usually try to keep it simple. For
> biological systems it is the DNA code. For cultural systems it
> is the hidden code people do not want to talk about because
> everything related to it is sacred (at least for the group
> which it defines). The knights templar had their own code, the
> order of the cistercians, the Franciscans and the other
> religious orders and organizations as well.
>
>
> Cults and sects have their code ( which can be simple
> political slogans such as "Make Your Country Great Again",
> "Build the wall" and "Lock them up" or simply "Do not
> criticize the supreme leader"). Criminal organizations have
> their code. Ideologies and political parties have their code.
> Behind every complex organism or organization there seems to
> be some form of code or DNA that generates and maintains it.
>
>
> Whenever something is happening in nature it is either supper
> or pairing time. Obviously because the underlying "selfish"
> code has created bodies which have the directive to maintain
> and replicate themselves. If we look at cultural systems, for
> instance at political conventions or at religious
> congregations, then we notice that every time something is
> really happening at a larger scale is that the code becomes
> active. People come together to read or express laws, rules,
> guidelines and policies.
>
>
> So I would say yes, if there is a secret then it is the code.
> Definitely. Is there a new math for it? IMO it is quite hard
> to formulate the expression of such a code in general
> mathematically. For example how can you describe
> mathematically if the speech of a president or party leader or
> priest has bigger consequences or not? It is at least as
> complicated as calculating a path integral in Quantum Field
> Theory.
>
>
> What might be possible is to calculate a probability how a
> group behavior changes depending how frequent a rule is read,
> remembered and expressed.
>
>
> -J.
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org>
> Date: 6/12/24 8:05 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <Friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: [FRIAM] new math of complexity
>
> Speaking of emergence, any takes on Phillip Ball's article in
> Quanta?
>
> https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-new-math-of-how-large-scale-order-emerges-20240610/
>
> I really liked his summary of the current non-explanations for
> emergence, but I haven't had time to read further.
>
> -- rec --
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