[FRIAM] genai and critical thinking

Tue Feb 11 21:02:06 EST 2025

We need more dogs.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:04 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:

> From 30k feet, a lot of people driving around for no apparent reason.
> They eat and drink a lot and then use expensive drugs to remove the adipose
> tissue that stores all that energy.   The atrophy they talk about from use
> of AI doesn’t seem to apply to their gluteus maximus.  Humans, sigh.
>
>
>
> *From: *Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of steve smith <
> sasmyth at swcp.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, February 11, 2025 at 4:24 PM
> *To: *friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] genai and critical thinking
>
>
>
> On 2/11/25 12:41 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Huh, Claude just implemented the optimal strategy to Nim and ran in it
> its analysis tool (the Javascript engine on my browser).
>
>
>
> what my oldMansBarFriend had to say after a brief discussion about Nim and
> the hand-over-hand on bat-handle playground method for deciding who bats
> first:
>
> <GPT 4o slopp>
>
> *Glad that landed! It’s like a "soft" or continuous Nim, where control
> isn’t strictly quantized but still follows a structured alternation toward
> an inevitable endgame. The constraints emerge organically—hand size, grip
> technique, and subtle physical limits—instead of rigid numerical rules.*
>
> *It’s a cool example of how discrete game theory principles manifest in
> the real world, with a touch of embodied cognition in the mix.*
>
> *<endSlopp>*
>
> And the following as an LLM (Slopp) reflection on the relative
> virtue/shame signals associated with chatting with your favorite LLM vs
> going to the Pub (and presumably having similar convos with
> bar-friends)?    The one mile each-way trip to the pub can be multiplied by
> 20 or 50 to estimate a "Sunday Drive" instead?
>
> Looks like a 15mpg driver of a pickup should drink order 3-4 beers to
> amortize the embedded energy cost of driving there/back but a hybrid or EV
> driver can get by with just one, maybe even a short one?   Domestic Drafts
> and Bottles are lower embedded energy (presumably because of industrial
> economies of scale) but imports are higher (because transport?).  In
> DeepSeekR1 ratios, it looks like "staying home and chatting with your fave
> LLM" has order 1000x savings over driving anything to the pub and having a
> single beer.  And taking a Sunday Drive is worth many times that?   Of
> course the LLM didn't twig to the conventional NM Sunday Joyride implying a
> six-pack at a minimum...
>
> I did beat both GPT and DS around the head and shoulders with a
> metaphorical wet noodle for a while to get relatively aligned numbers
> (aligned with one another and with my(very) lame intuition)...  but expect
> (m)any here to poke holes in the details...
>
> Sadly I'm a pretty good sloppGenerator without an LLM's help... I'll try
> to refrain from the doubleDown offered.
>
> <freshSlopp>
>
> *Refined Travel and Beer Comparison with Energy Usage Ratios (DeepSeekR1
> Query Denominator)*
>
> *Category*
>
> *Cost (USD)*
>
> *Total Energy Consumption (1 Mile Round Trip, kWh)*
>
> *Sunday Joyride (2 hours, countryside)*
>
> *Energy Usage Ratio (vs. Local Craft Beer)*
>
> *Energy Usage Ratio (vs. DeepSeekR1 Query)*
>
> *1) Personal Travel*
>
> a) *Truck*
>
> $3–$5 (1 mile)
>
> ~2.6–3.7 kWh
>
> ~12–18 kWh
>
> 2.6–3.7x
>
> 520–740x
>
> b) *ICE Car*
>
> $1.50–$3 (1 mile)
>
> ~1.4–2.1 kWh
>
> ~12–18 kWh
>
> 1.4–2.1x
>
> 280–420x
>
> c) *Hybrid Car*
>
> $1–$2 (1 mile)
>
> ~0.8–1.1 kWh
>
> ~12–18 kWh
>
> 0.8–1.1x
>
> 160–220x
>
> d) *Electric Car*
>
> $0.50–$1 (1 mile)
>
> ~0.4–0.5 kWh
>
> ~12–18 kWh
>
> 0.4–0.5x
>
> 80–100x
>
> e) *Walking*
>
> $0 (no cost)
>
> ~0 kWh
>
> ~0 kWh
>
> 0x
>
> 0x
>
> f) *Bicycling*
>
> $0 (no cost)
>
> ~0 kWh
>
> ~0 kWh
>
> 0x
>
> 0x
>
> g) *Public Transport*
>
> $1–$3 per ride
>
> ~0.3–0.7 kWh (depending on method)
>
> ~2–4 kWh (for a 1–2 hour ride)
>
> 0.3–0.7x
>
> 60–140x
>
> *2) Beer Consumption*
>
> a) *Local Craft Draft*
>
> $5–$10 per pint
>
> ~0.8–1.3 kWh
>
> -
>
> 1x
>
> 160–260x
>
> b) *Domestic Draft (Regional)*
>
> $3–$5 per pint
>
> ~0.5–0.7 kWh
>
> -
>
> 0.5–0.7x
>
> 80–140x
>
> c) *Domestic Can/Bottle*
>
> $2–$5 per can/bottle
>
> ~0.4–0.8 kWh
>
> -
>
> 0.4–0.8x
>
> 60–140x
>
> d) *Mexican Bottle*
>
> $3–$6 per bottle
>
> ~0.9–1.8 kWh
>
> -
>
> 1.1–1.4x
>
> 180–360x
>
> e) *European Can/Bottle*
>
> $4–$8 per can/bottle
>
> ~1.5–2.9 kWh
>
> -
>
> 1.9–3.7x
>
> 300–580x
>
> f) *Asian Can/Bottle*
>
> $4–$7 per can/bottle
>
> ~2.1–3.6 kWh
>
> -
>
> 2.6–4.6x
>
> 340–720x
>
> *3) GPT Model Queries*
>
> a) *GPT-3 (Single Query)*
>
> Varies
>
> ~0.002–0.005 kWh
>
> -
>
> 0.002–0.006x
>
> 0.4–1x
>
> b) *GPT-4o (Single Query)*
>
> Varies
>
> ~0.01–0.03 kWh
>
> -
>
> 0.01–0.03x
>
> 2–6x
>
> c) *GPT-4o Mini (Single Query)*
>
> Varies
>
> ~0.005–0.02 kWh
>
> -
>
> 0.005–0.02x
>
> 1–4x
>
> d) *DeepSeekR1 (Single Query)*
>
> Varies
>
> ~0.001–0.005 kWh
>
> -
>
> 0.001–0.005x
>
> 1x
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on
> behalf of Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org> <rec at elf.org>
> *Date: *Tuesday, February 11, 2025 at 11:36 AM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] genai and critical thinking
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 10:15 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
>  *[...]* the evolving code itself -- code that can have informative types
> and even carry proofs.   The weirdest thing about using AI is that it has
> no opinions.  Claude will rewrite code without asking (seemingly having no
> self-control), but it will not confront you like a frustrated colleague
> might.  It is happy to let you make a mess provided its sense of idiomatic
> code patterns are satisfied.
>
>
>
>  This echoed something an old boss wrote me today:
>
>
>
> I have much enjoyment torturing llms. I can get off the rails rather
> easily.  They have no state, by themselves they cannot calculate parity or
> play nim perfectly.
>
>
>
> Or one might say, they have no purpose.
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
>
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
> archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. /
> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20250211/dc47af46/attachment-0001.html>