[FRIAM] genai and critical thinking
steve smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Tue Feb 11 22:20:35 EST 2025
"other people are traffic"
On 2/11/25 6:03 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> From 30k feet, a lot of people driving around for no apparent reason.
> They eat and drink a lot and then use expensive drugs to remove the
> adipose tissue that stores all that energy. The atrophy they talk
> about from use of AI doesn’t seem to apply to their gluteus maximus.
> Humans, sigh.
>
> *From: *Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of steve smith
> <sasmyth at swcp.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, February 11, 2025 at 4:24 PM
> *To: *friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] genai and critical thinking
>
> On 2/11/25 12:41 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Huh, Claude just implemented the optimal strategy to Nim and ran
> in it its analysis tool (the Javascript engine on my browser).
>
> what my oldMansBarFriend had to say after a brief discussion about Nim
> and the hand-over-hand on bat-handle playground method for deciding
> who bats first:
>
> <GPT 4o slopp>
>
> /Glad that landed! It’s like a *"soft" or continuous Nim*,
> where control isn’t strictly quantized but still follows a
> structured alternation toward an inevitable endgame. The
> constraints emerge organically—*hand size, grip technique,
> and subtle physical limits*—instead of rigid numerical rules./
>
> /It’s a cool example of how *discrete game theory
> principles* manifest in the real world, with a touch of
> *embodied cognition* in the mix./
>
> /<endSlopp>/
>
> And the following as an LLM (Slopp) reflection on the relative
> virtue/shame signals associated with chatting with your favorite LLM
> vs going to the Pub (and presumably having similar convos with
> bar-friends)? The one mile each-way trip to the pub can be
> multiplied by 20 or 50 to estimate a "Sunday Drive" instead?
>
> Looks like a 15mpg driver of a pickup should drink order 3-4 beers to
> amortize the embedded energy cost of driving there/back but a hybrid
> or EV driver can get by with just one, maybe even a short one?
> Domestic Drafts and Bottles are lower embedded energy (presumably
> because of industrial economies of scale) but imports are higher
> (because transport?). In DeepSeekR1 ratios, it looks like "staying
> home and chatting with your fave LLM" has order 1000x savings over
> driving anything to the pub and having a single beer. And taking a
> Sunday Drive is worth many times that? Of course the LLM didn't twig
> to the conventional NM Sunday Joyride implying a six-pack at a minimum...
>
> I did beat both GPT and DS around the head and shoulders with a
> metaphorical wet noodle for a while to get relatively aligned numbers
> (aligned with one another and with my(very) lame intuition)... but
> expect (m)any here to poke holes in the details...
>
> Sadly I'm a pretty good sloppGenerator without an LLM's help... I'll
> try to refrain from the doubleDown offered.
>
> <freshSlopp>
>
>
> *Refined Travel and Beer Comparison with
> Energy Usage Ratios (DeepSeekR1 Query
> Denominator)*
>
> *Category***
>
>
>
> *Cost (USD)***
>
>
>
> *Total Energy Consumption (1 Mile Round Trip,
> kWh)***
>
>
>
> *Sunday Joyride (2 hours, countryside)***
>
>
>
> *Energy Usage Ratio (vs. Local Craft Beer)***
>
>
>
> *Energy Usage Ratio (vs. DeepSeekR1 Query)***
>
> *1) Personal Travel*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> a) *Truck*
>
>
>
> $3–$5 (1 mile)
>
>
>
> ~2.6–3.7 kWh
>
>
>
> ~12–18 kWh
>
>
>
> 2.6–3.7x
>
>
>
> 520–740x
>
> b) *ICE Car*
>
>
>
> $1.50–$3 (1 mile)
>
>
>
> ~1.4–2.1 kWh
>
>
>
> ~12–18 kWh
>
>
>
> 1.4–2.1x
>
>
>
> 280–420x
>
> c) *Hybrid Car*
>
>
>
> $1–$2 (1 mile)
>
>
>
> ~0.8–1.1 kWh
>
>
>
> ~12–18 kWh
>
>
>
> 0.8–1.1x
>
>
>
> 160–220x
>
> d) *Electric Car*
>
>
>
> $0.50–$1 (1 mile)
>
>
>
> ~0.4–0.5 kWh
>
>
>
> ~12–18 kWh
>
>
>
> 0.4–0.5x
>
>
>
> 80–100x
>
> e) *Walking*
>
>
>
> $0 (no cost)
>
>
>
> ~0 kWh
>
>
>
> ~0 kWh
>
>
>
> 0x
>
>
>
> 0x
>
> f) *Bicycling*
>
>
>
> $0 (no cost)
>
>
>
> ~0 kWh
>
>
>
> ~0 kWh
>
>
>
> 0x
>
>
>
> 0x
>
> g) *Public Transport*
>
>
>
> $1–$3 per ride
>
>
>
> ~0.3–0.7 kWh (depending on method)
>
>
>
> ~2–4 kWh (for a 1–2 hour ride)
>
>
>
> 0.3–0.7x
>
>
>
> 60–140x
>
> *2) Beer Consumption*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> a) *Local Craft Draft*
>
>
>
> $5–$10 per pint
>
>
>
> ~0.8–1.3 kWh
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> 1x
>
>
>
> 160–260x
>
> b) *Domestic Draft (Regional)*
>
>
>
> $3–$5 per pint
>
>
>
> ~0.5–0.7 kWh
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> 0.5–0.7x
>
>
>
> 80–140x
>
> c) *Domestic Can/Bottle*
>
>
>
> $2–$5 per can/bottle
>
>
>
> ~0.4–0.8 kWh
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> 0.4–0.8x
>
>
>
> 60–140x
>
> d) *Mexican Bottle*
>
>
>
> $3–$6 per bottle
>
>
>
> ~0.9–1.8 kWh
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> 1.1–1.4x
>
>
>
> 180–360x
>
> e) *European Can/Bottle*
>
>
>
> $4–$8 per can/bottle
>
>
>
> ~1.5–2.9 kWh
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> 1.9–3.7x
>
>
>
> 300–580x
>
> f) *Asian Can/Bottle*
>
>
>
> $4–$7 per can/bottle
>
>
>
> ~2.1–3.6 kWh
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> 2.6–4.6x
>
>
>
> 340–720x
>
> *3) GPT Model Queries*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> a) *GPT-3 (Single Query)*
>
>
>
> Varies
>
>
>
> ~0.002–0.005 kWh
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> 0.002–0.006x
>
>
>
> 0.4–1x
>
> b) *GPT-4o (Single Query)*
>
>
>
> Varies
>
>
>
> ~0.01–0.03 kWh
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> 0.01–0.03x
>
>
>
> 2–6x
>
> c) *GPT-4o Mini (Single Query)*
>
>
>
> Varies
>
>
>
> ~0.005–0.02 kWh
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> 0.005–0.02x
>
>
>
> 1–4x
>
> d) *DeepSeekR1 (Single Query)*
>
>
>
> Varies
>
>
>
> ~0.001–0.005 kWh
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> 0.001–0.005x
>
>
>
> 1x
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> *From: *Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com>
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Roger Critchlow
> <rec at elf.org> <mailto:rec at elf.org>
> *Date: *Tuesday, February 11, 2025 at 11:36 AM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] genai and critical thinking
>
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 10:15 AM Marcus Daniels
> <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>
> _[...]_ the evolving code itself -- code that can have
> informative types and even carry proofs. The weirdest thing
> about using AI is that it has no opinions. Claude will
> rewrite code without asking (seemingly having no
> self-control), but it will not confront you like a frustrated
> colleague might. It is happy to let you make a mess provided
> its sense of idiomatic code patterns are satisfied.
>
> This echoed something an old boss wrote me today:
>
> I have much enjoyment torturing llms. I can get off the rails
> rather easily. They have no state, by themselves they cannot
> calculate parity or play nim perfectly.
>
> Or one might say, they have no purpose.
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
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>
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