[FRIAM] Your personal truth

steve smith sasmyth at swcp.com
Fri May 9 14:14:26 EDT 2025 

The geometric metaphor/analogy oft used here to discuss LLMs (and othr 
contemporary Generative AI?) is that of interpolation. While I am 
compelled by this myself, (subsampling and gradient following on high 
dimensional manifolds) I am also lead to believe/suspect that 
topological interpolation/extrapolation, in the same sense as conceptual 
blending is relevant?   I haven't followed the original reference to 
Hopfield's topographic metaphor but I'm vaguely surprised from what I 
know of him that he'd not also invoke topology...

On 5/9/25 7:39 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> OK Nick, You asked for it:
>
> I totally agree with you.
>
> As I believe you do, I think metaphor is absolutely essential, 
> generalizing a bit on Quine's statement "at the fringe of science only 
> metaphor can guide us" I would replace science with understanding. But 
> when it comes to the brain, Mind, Consciousness, and Intelligence—no 
> one has produced a useful or even usable metaphor that increases our 
> understanding.
>
> The only point of departure, is I would find less fault with 
> anthropomorphism than I do with the computational metaphor that 
> dominates the conversation about brain-mind-intelligence. Mary is a 
> mere imp compared to that Satan.
>
> I do like Hopfield's metaphor of a topographic surface that channels 
> "rainfall" (inputs) to "oceans" (outputs) as an explanation for the 
> operation of one possible bit of "innards," i.e., a neural net.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Fri, May 9, 2025, at 5:16 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Oh Gosh, Jochen.  On the one hand I am deeply indebted to FRIAM 
>> members for allowing me to noodle in areas of thought where I have no 
>> business; on the other hand, I feel obligated not to hide from you 
>> how very, very bad I think Mary C. Lamia’s thinking is.  In the first 
>> place, lover of metaphors that am, I think the anthropomorphism of 
>> the brain is one of the most dangerous metaphors a human can bring to 
>> psychology, because it sets off an eternal loop of thought from which 
>> there is no escape.   Meteorology and Psychology have much in common. 
>> They both have to do with objects with innards operating in 
>> environments.  With Psychology, the objects are human, the innards 
>> are the guts and brain, and the environment is the people and things 
>> around us.  In Meteorology, the objects are the storms, the innards 
>> are the fronts and other structures of cyclones, and the environment 
>> is the earth’s surface and the larger circulation of its atmosphere.  
>> Perhaps I feel drawn to Meteorology just because it seems so like a 
>> behavioral science.  (Or, to get the order of events right, I was 
>> drawn to Psychology because it was so like Meteorology.)   But we 
>> must keep our levels of organization straight.  And if we, like Mary 
>> C., are to make metaphors between the whole (the person) and the part 
>> (the brain) and then to say that the part is manipulating the whole, 
>> she ought to be damn clear what kind of metaphorical world she his 
>> let herself into or she will never get out alive. I don’t think she 
>> knows anything she is talking about.  I would be terrified if one of 
>> my college-aged grandchildren were to fall into the hands of such a 
>> person.
>>
>> I am deeply sorry if I am being a jerk.  (And will no doubt deeplier 
>> sorrier when one of you points out both that I am both being a jerk 
>> and  that I am wrong).  If you were tempted to carry on this 
>> conversation further, now I have been a jerk, I would love to explore 
>> with you how some aspect of Mary’s thought accorded with your 
>> experience and perhaps gave you comfort or insight because of that.  
>> When she talks of the brain, what is she actually talking about for 
>> you.  Because, if one thing is damned sure, it is that when people 
>> talk about their brains, they are talking about something they have 
>> never touched or seen or heard or felt.  They are talking about a 
>> beetle in a box, a nothing.  Or they are using the brain as a model 
>> of behavior.
>>
>> OK, Russ, Dave, Glen, Marcus, Erics, have at me.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> *From:*Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 24, 2025 2:10 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Your personal truth
>>
>> If Nick shares his struggles with weather I can share my unqualified 
>> thoughts about psychology :-P I was thinking about the orange menace, 
>> how he deceives everyone and how he manipulates his followers by 
>> controlling their emotions and I was wondering if emotions deceive us 
>> in general. Do emotions deceive us by creating a reality distortion 
>> field that paints the objects they have identified as desirable 
>> (primarily food & mates for supper and pairing time) in the brightest 
>> colors?
>>
>> Emotions certainly need to manipulate us in order to control us. 
>> Their purpose is to influence our behavior and interactions. 
>> Psychologist Mary C. Lamia writes "Without any deliberate effort on 
>> your part, your brain evaluates every situation you encounter and 
>> decides if an emotion should be activated to alert and protect you" 
>> [1]. They are in a sense the PR machine and advertising agency of the 
>> body. As if the body would create an advertising agency that 
>> highlights the objects it should seek.
>>
>> Emotions deceive us because they exaggerate. If we are in love they 
>> turn the desired object of person into some kind of wonderful dream. 
>> We only perceive positive traits while negative ones are overlooked. 
>> If we hate something we only perceive negative traits. These 
>> distortions act on top of your beliefs which "create a cognitive lens 
>> through which you interpret the events of your world" [2]
>>
>> They exaggerate to alert and protect us. Mary C. Lamia writes "By 
>> creating anxiety, anger, sadness, fear, guilt, shame, disgust, 
>> embarrassment, or any number of emotional responses that your brain 
>> has at its disposal, your emotional system attempts to inform and 
>> protect you by making you feel whatever it is you need to know." [1]
>>
>> Emotions deceive us because they can be misguided based on your 
>> previous experience, for example in anxiety disorders or addiction: 
>> "Your emotional system has no reason to lie, although it can be 
>> misguided based on your previous experiences in the world that have 
>> informed it." [1]
>>
>> Apparently emotions create a personal truth for each of us which 
>> shows us the world as they (on behalf of our selfish genes) want us 
>> to see it. A kind of personalized, distorted version of reality that 
>> reflects the importance of each object based on our personal longings 
>> and desires. Mary C. Lamia writes "nevertheless, your emotions will 
>> tell you the truth - your truth - even if you don't want to listen." [1]
>>
>> [1] 
>> https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/intense-emotions-and-strong-feelings/201208/do-emotions-lie
>>
>> [2] 
>> https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-forward/202009/how-your-thinking-creates-your-reality
>>
>> -J.
>>
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