[FRIAM] FW: Covid-Lancet-PART-2 (002).doc
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Sat May 8 01:53:57 EDT 2021
I have a friend who did a long stint in Ghana with the Peace Corps and
contracted Malaria during that time and was quite consumed by it by the
time he chose to return to the states. He reported (when
Hydroxychloroquine came up as a possible remedy for COVID) that he went
through a number of high dose courses over (many?) months and while it
did help him significantly beat it down, it was not without severe side
effects (at those doses) and he *personally* believed that while it was
a likely candidate for helping with a wild-card virus like COVID-19 that
it was a risky thing to prescribe/use indiscriminately, if not for the
health of the patient, for the squeeze on the supply for the myriad
other uses it IS highly vetted for in the third world. He seemed to
believe that if COVID-19 demand took more than a minimal number of doses
off the 3rd world supply (or raised the price), the net result would be
not-a-good-thing by humanitarian standards.
If SoAfrica, for example, boosted Quercetin production to meet your
presumed need for broad use there, then it may well be a good thing if
not taken in the doses that my friend had to take (apparently) to beat
Malaria down. He believe he still has residual effects from both
Malaria (the illness) and Hyrdorxychloroquine (the cure) and wants to
believe that he is overall better for having taken it, but mostly
because he wants to believe that the docs were "doing their best", even
if the cure did more damage than the illness.
With that background I didn't have a problem with Trump taking the drug
or even acknowledging it *might* be helpful, but I interpreted his
endorsement as implying a "miracle cure" whilst paradoxically trying to
dismiss any worries about the Virus itself and the lack of positive
evidence the it was effective and the lack of negative evidence that the
side-effects may be worse than the illness it was intended to relieve.
His schtick on the topic was, for lack of a better term, "very
Trumpian". That does not mean he was *dead wrong* about
hydroxychloroquine... but imagine if he'd decided to dump all the
support that went to vaccines into boosting production/delivery of
hydroxychloroquine?
Maybe South Africa will be a testbed for that strategy? Do you have any
idea how extensively Quercetin is being used for COVID in South
Africa? Do you know if it is also used as a general-purpose anti-viral
for other viruses (as it apparently is in more equatorial regions) like
Malaria. I just (re)read your post and realized you said "natural, over
the counter" so it sounds like neither high-doses nor widely
*prescribed* though maybe widely heralded/promoted?
In any case, I hope that your over-the-counter wards are helpful to you
and yours. I'm an anecdotal fan of Zinc/C for helping me with at least
the symptoms of cold/flu even though I generally eschew all
supplements/medication (my Luddite thing). I suppose I might dose with
those if I had COVID symptoms or exposure... and assuming your
Quercetin is low dose, maybe even that, as long as it didn't line Donald
Trump's pockets of course...
As inefficient as it is for every country/region to have a modesty
different approach to a pandemic like this, I'm not inclined to vilify
those who ended up "guessing wrong". It is easy to armchair
quarterback (in hindsight) the decisions made in other regions of the
world with significantly different circumstances. I'm guessing (but
don't know) that South Africa's infection and death rates may be closer
to Australia than India? I also don't know if your lack of vaccines is
a global supply problem, a government policy to not pursue them as
heavily, or some unexplained coincidence?
On 5/6/21 2:23 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> */ is it true that the matter simply stands with the Hah-vud studies
> retracted, and nothing more said? That doesn’t seem right.
> /*
>
> I just don't know.
>
> I speculated that the topic was just way too politicized to get to the
> bottom of it without spending serious time and effort on it and I
> chose not to do that.
>
> On a personal note, we don't yet have vaccinations in South Africa, my
> wife and I are each having daily doses of Quercetin, a natural
> over-the-counter version of Hydroxychloroquine, and vitamin D and
> Zinc and a couple of other immune boosters too.
>
>
>
> On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 21:46, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Pieter,
>
>
>
> Interesting. As somebody who has followed the research, is it
> true that the matter simply stands with the Hah-vud studies
> retracted, and nothing more said? That doesn’t seem right.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 6, 2021 1:12 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] FW: Covid-Lancet-PART-2 (002).doc
>
>
>
> I'm not particularly fond of Donald Trump, but the elephant in the
> room is that Hydroxychloroquine became well-known after Trump
> advocated it. At the time I followed and researched it a bit and I
> came to the conclusion that both the mainstream media and the
> medical industry were against Hydroxychloroquine mainly because
> Trump actively advocated it. The Lancet saga certainly did not
> influence me to change that conclusion.
>
>
>
> On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 19:52, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com
> <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> This does not seem interesting to me. The vaccines have been
> demonstrated to be effective and safe to very large degrees
> based on many millions of inoculations. Why should I care
> about some suspect studies with small n.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 6, 2021, 11:33 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Dear Phellow Phriammers,
>
>
>
> I have noted that most of what I have written here of late
> has been ignored, and that’s ok, actually. Usually, it is
> the possibility that you MIGHT read what I write that
> keeps me writing and, behaviorist to the last, writing is
> what I need to do in order to think.
>
>
>
> But this situation is different. I really don’t know what
> to think about Pavlovic’s
> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Dragan-Pavlovic-4>
> paper. There may have been some trouble with the cloud
> version, so I have attached it to this message.
>
>
>
> So, this is a case where I really need some help. I
> realize that you are all engaged in this excellent
> correspondence about UBI, which has revealed all sorts of
> “-ists” that I never thought were alive and well in the
> world, let alone in this group. I would not interfere
> with that for a second. But, could a few of you take a
> look at his paper
> <https://1drv.ms/w/s!AptIKbsAd7gjllccpq9yXXQ4hb2N?e=HCzjaV>
> (very short, a commentary, actually). I think he is
> actually a candidate for this group. He is an MD, Phd,
> anaesthesiologist, retired in Paris, who has participated
> in hundreds of scientific papers, who is passionate ( I
> worry, perhaps sometimes a bit too passionate) about
> dozens of different things and suspicious of everything.
> He wants, for instance, to dig a gigantic tunnel to bring
> large ships directly from the danube to the Mediterranean.
>
>
>
> I, of course, live in a bubble, but I don’t like to have
> that fact thrust in my face as powerfully as when he
> reveals to me that the two HAAA=VUD papers denouncing
> Chloquoroquine were retracted a year ago, and I never
> found out. I can’t get any sense of whether there has
> been any attempt to revive them or to redo the original
> clinical study that suggested HCQ’s efficacy against CoVid.
>
>
>
> Any little bit of help you could give me would be great.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 5, 2021 9:48 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
> *Cc:* 'Prof David West' <profwest at fastmail.fm
> <mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm>>
> *Subject:* Covid-Lancet-PART-2 (002).doc
>
>
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
>
>
> I attach a paper
> <https://1drv.ms/w/s!AptIKbsAd7gjllccpq9yXXQ4hb2N?e=HCzjaV>
> written by an internet acquaintance I made some years
> back, Dragan Pavlovic. I am sending it along for two
> reasons. First, it reveals (to me, at least) that the two
> negative studies on Hydroxychloroquine use in
> SARS-CoVid-19 treatment were based on unverified data and
> were withdrawn by their authors almost immediately. (Have
> the rest of you known this for the last year and not told
> me? I cannot believe, after we pilloried poor Dave for
> advocating for it, that he has not gloated about it. )
> Second, Pavlovic raises the intension/extension
> distinction in the context of the interpretation of
> scientific results and also questions Randomized Control
> Trials as the "Gold Standard" for discovery. Thus, I think
> he is a kindred spirit, being a bit of a grumpy contrarian
> like many of us here. I have promised to forward any
> comments you make to him, so be polite but speak truth.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Nick Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
> un/subscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com>
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/>
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
> un/subscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com>
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/>
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com>
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/>
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
>
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20210507/ac61773c/attachment.html>
More information about the Friam
mailing list