[FRIAM] Wolpert - discussion thread placeholder

[Steve Smith]

On 9/11/22 12:18 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> My erstwhile boss Raj Reddy was in the same Department with Simon and 
> Newell and knew their work well.  He said that it was relatively easy 
> to create a computer program that did the work of a professor that the 
> real challenge would be to develop an autonomous bulldozer.

And even more cool robotic working Elephants?

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/AXH7J2/asian-elephants-working-in-logging-industry-in-rainforests-of-muang-AXH7J2.jpg

https://singularityhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/SH-77_1-BIG.jpg

>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 11:37 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> 
> wrote:
>
>     Wolpert's questions are fantastic. Thanks glen for prompting this
>     discussion.
>
>     Re: question one about the "chasm with minimal cognitive
>     capabilities necessary ..."
>
>     I have two major problems with the assumptions behind this question.
>
>     First, the assumption that Godel, Einstein, and Beethoven
>     exemplify 'greater' (in some sense of that word) cognitive
>     abilities. This is analogous the the AI notions advanced by Newel
>     and Simon that they had succeeded in creating a thinking machine
>     because the thinking reproduced was that of university professors.
>     They thought that the way they thought was the apex of human
>     thinking. A much greater challenge— still avoided, even by the
>     most sophisticated ML approaches — is how a baby is able to learn
>     and extract meaning from a chaotic cacophony of inputs.
>
>     Second, that the cognitive capabilities of pre-Holocene humans
>     were "minimal." The most pernicious myth with regard our long ago
>     ancestors derive from either Rousseau or Hobbes—both of whom
>     conjectured, with no evidence, that our ancestors existed in a
>     primitive state—Edenic for Rousseau, and brutish for Hobbes, but
>     simplistically primitive.
>
>     Quite the opposite was true. The world was far more complex and
>     challenging, with everything from social relations to 'food
>     chemistry' (e.g. brewing beer) to explanations of why everything
>     in the world was as it was being highly variable across population
>     groups and constantly in flux. A bit analogous to the baby making
>     sense of the world.
>
>     Humans today are able to "survive" primarily because of tens of
>     thousands of years accumulation of "culture." Because we have that
>     resource, we do not have to figure out if that nice striped
>     quadruped over there will eat me; or, if that red berry will kill
>     me but the other red berry is essential for a great BLT.
>
>     It might be possible to make an argument: Godel, et. al., were
>     able to do what they did because 'culture' reduced the daily
>     (hourly, millisecond-ly) cognitive load such that it was possible
>     to put the 'surplus' to work on issues of math and music; but, not
>     that there was any kind of qualitative or quantitative difference
>     in cognitive abilities of humans then and now.
>
>     to be continued ...
>
>     davew
>
>
>     On Sat, Sep 10, 2022, at 8:05 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
>     > DaveW -
>     >> Just wanted to put this here as a placeholder for future
>     conversation as I would like to take up Wolpert's questions even
>     though I am not "miraculous" per glen's invitation.  I do need a
>     day to two to read and pose questions /make observations, but
>     others might be ready to chime in with observations right away.
>     >
>     > always ready to "chime" at the drop of a dime here...
>     >
>     > I look forward to your more considered responses.  I hope my own
>     chimes
>     > aren't more mud than water...
>     >
>     >
>     >
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