[FRIAM] Wolpert - discussion thread placeholder

Sun Sep 11 15:31:59 EDT 2022

On 9/11/22 12:56 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Was just driving the backroads of Oregon in a Tesla on autopilot.
>
> Tesla autopilot knows a lot.  For example, it understands the 
> difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle.   On one occasion it 
> mistook the sun low in the sky for a large yellow streetlight.  When 
> it is confused it simply requires you to take the wheel.   While it 
> never seems to miss speed signs, it will respect the driver’s speed 
> setting.  Autopilot still requires the driver to check in frequently, 
> so it is mostly still a novelty.  One thing it is better at than I am, 
> is identifying deceleration.   It warns only if you don’t see it, not 
> if you do.
>
I've a friend who made the point a while back that humanity's history 
with technology has been to consistently build things to replace 
themselves...

One could argue that our technology has been to *augment* rather than 
*replace* and yet the net result is to displace?  Tooth and Claw becomes 
flaked stone-cum surgical steel/ceramic - blade/chainsaw.   Fur and 
leathery hide becomes bearskin robe-cum temperature-regulated kevlar 
body-armor.  Calloused Feet becomes latex-dipped runners cum 
Self-Driving Tesla Gyrocopter.  Memory and oral tradition becomes clay 
tablet/quipu - cum global interwebs connecting IoQT (internet of Quantum 
Things)?

I have had a few brushes with modern automobiles (rentals), advanced 
situational awareness sensors but no *actuators*...  And yet even my 
first Schwinn circa 1964 was advanced enough that once I was "trained to 
it", the bicycle could "steer itself" almost as if it were reading my mind.

> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 11, 2022 11:19 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Wolpert - discussion thread placeholder
>
> My erstwhile boss Raj Reddy was in the same Department with Simon and 
> Newell and knew their work well.  He said that it was relatively easy 
> to create a computer program that did the work of a professor that the 
> real challenge would be to develop an autonomous bulldozer.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Sep 11, 2022, 11:37 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> 
> wrote:
>
>     Wolpert's questions are fantastic. Thanks glen for prompting this
>     discussion.
>
>     Re: question one about the "chasm with minimal cognitive
>     capabilities necessary ..."
>
>     I have two major problems with the assumptions behind this question.
>
>     First, the assumption that Godel, Einstein, and Beethoven
>     exemplify 'greater' (in some sense of that word) cognitive
>     abilities. This is analogous the the AI notions advanced by Newel
>     and Simon that they had succeeded in creating a thinking machine
>     because the thinking reproduced was that of university professors.
>     They thought that the way they thought was the apex of human
>     thinking. A much greater challenge— still avoided, even by the
>     most sophisticated ML approaches — is how a baby is able to learn
>     and extract meaning from a chaotic cacophony of inputs.
>
>     Second, that the cognitive capabilities of pre-Holocene humans
>     were "minimal." The most pernicious myth with regard our long ago
>     ancestors derive from either Rousseau or Hobbes—both of whom
>     conjectured, with no evidence, that our ancestors existed in a
>     primitive state—Edenic for Rousseau, and brutish for Hobbes, but
>     simplistically primitive.
>
>     Quite the opposite was true. The world was far more complex and
>     challenging, with everything from social relations to 'food
>     chemistry' (e.g. brewing beer) to explanations of why everything
>     in the world was as it was being highly variable across population
>     groups and constantly in flux. A bit analogous to the baby making
>     sense of the world.
>
>     Humans today are able to "survive" primarily because of tens of
>     thousands of years accumulation of "culture." Because we have that
>     resource, we do not have to figure out if that nice striped
>     quadruped over there will eat me; or, if that red berry will kill
>     me but the other red berry is essential for a great BLT.
>
>     It might be possible to make an argument: Godel, et. al., were
>     able to do what they did because 'culture' reduced the daily
>     (hourly, millisecond-ly) cognitive load such that it was possible
>     to put the 'surplus' to work on issues of math and music; but, not
>     that there was any kind of qualitative or quantitative difference
>     in cognitive abilities of humans then and now.
>
>     to be continued ...
>
>     davew
>
>
>     On Sat, Sep 10, 2022, at 8:05 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
>     > DaveW -
>     >> Just wanted to put this here as a placeholder for future
>     conversation as I would like to take up Wolpert's questions even
>     though I am not "miraculous" per glen's invitation.  I do need a
>     day to two to read and pose questions /make observations, but
>     others might be ready to chime in with observations right away.
>     >
>     > always ready to "chime" at the drop of a dime here...
>     >
>     > I look forward to your more considered responses.  I hope my own
>     chimes
>     > aren't more mud than water...
>     >
>     >
>     >
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