[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.

[Nicholas Thompson]

Nice. At this point on this thread, I am interested in your experiences of
self-copnsciounss in others vs your description of self-consciousness in
yourself..



On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:17 PM Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at simtable.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:54 AM Nicholas Thompson <
> thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Here is an example  If you play a dog's bark back to him, does he respond
>> as if it's the bark of an intruder?
>> If not, that suggest some sort of self recognition mechanism,  given that
>> the bark I give sounds a heluva lot different  from the bark I would hear
>> if if I were the hearer of my own bark.
>>
>
> Nick
>
> Dog recognizing its own bark may be close to the  self-recognition in
> mirror test which dogs and cats fail (and some humans). Dogs do recognize
> their own odor in many tests.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test
>
> +-----------------+---------------------------+
> | Species         | Mirror Self-Recognition    |
> +-----------------+---------------------------+
> | Infants         | Yes (18-24 months)         |
> | Monkeys         | No                         |
> | Chimps          | Yes (2-3 years)            |
> | Dolphins        | Yes (2-3 years)            |
> | Democrats       | Yes (18-24 months)         |
> | Elephants       | Yes (2-3 years)            |
> | Magpies         | Yes                        |
> | Republicans     | Mixed                      |
> | Gorillas        | Mixed                      |
> | Orangutans      | Yes                        |
> | Pigeons         | Mixed                      |
> | Octopi          | No                         |
> | Dogs            | No                         |
> | Cats            | No                         |
> +-----------------+---------------------------+
>
> Amsterdam, B. (1972). Mirror self-image reactions before age two.
> Developmental Psychobiology, 5(4), 297–305.
> https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403.
> https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf
> EGallup, G. G. (1970). "Chimpanzees: Self-recognition." *Science*,
> 167(3914), 86-87. https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.8
> <https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.86>
> Reiss, D., & Marino, L. (2001). "Mirror self-recognition in the bottlenose
> dolphin: A case of cognitive convergence." *Proceedings of the National
> Academy of Sciences*, 98(10), 5937-5942.
> https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.101086398
> <https://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/593>
> Plotnik, J. M., de Waal, F. B., & Reiss, D. (2006). "Self-recognition in
> an Asian elephant." *Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences*,
> 103(45), 17053-17057. https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053
>
> FWIW,  I don't consider self-awareness necessary for consciousness -
> though it is an interesting topic to me like theory-of-mind.
>
> -Stephen
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