[FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV.

[Prof David West]

I agree with glen that inter-individual interactions/observations will not get to where Nick seems to want to go. Because that was the stated starting point of the thread, I went along, to see if i was wrong.

Nick: *"For me;  the heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an agent, that  A is one of those  that others are.  I am trying to think what sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience."*

I can offer no anecdotes to assist. I do have lots of stories about self-awareness in a variety of contexts. All of them lead to the conclusion that, "I" am NOT *"one of those that others are." (obviously there is some marginal overlap)*

Of course this is based entirely on what 'others' are willing/able to publicly reveal about them*S*elves.

davew


On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 10:02 AM, glen wrote:
> It still seems backwards to me. The anecdotes about inter-individual 
> interactions don't indicate consciousness at all. [1] The move to 
> self-consciousness would be more appropriate. For example, my cat 
> clearly exhibits a (or several) feedback loop(s) when grooming a grass 
> burr out of his fur. (Or a dog walking in circles for a full minute 
> before finally lying down.) This is a marker for a very high order 
> consciousness. An indicator for lower (but still quite high) order 
> consciousness is the lengthy consideration of the water bowl as he 
> decides whether or not it's quality is proper or if he should go drink 
> out of the ditch. [2] Such reflection is a hallmark of consciousness 
> for me. And it's founded in, composed of, lower order feedback loops of 
> interoception.
>
> In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that consciousness is only 
> indirectly relevant to inter-individual phenomena at all. We can get a 
> full panoply of complex behavior out of collections of very stupid 
> individuals. To study consciousness, you need a cohesive system capable 
> of exhibiting allostasis. Using 2 such individuals in such studies 
> explodes the variables you need to consider, obscurum per obscurius.
>
> [⛧] Witness concepts like "mansplaining" and "cringe", inter-individual 
> interactions denying (some aspect of) the subjects' consciousness, yet 
> confirming the observers' consciousness. Trans-agent phenomena are ripe 
> for abuse and imputation. This is why the Turing test was designed the 
> way it was. It blurs the analogical replacability requirements across 
> simulation, emulation, and authenticity. Were we to be scientific about 
> this, we'd try to control for/against simulation and emulation, which 
> means eliminating inter-individual contexts to the extent we can.
>
> [2] These are not anthropomorphic. I have no idea or projection onto 
> what he's thinking when he does these things. However, I do engage in 
> anthropomorphization when I see him trying to decide whether to stay 
> inside or go outside when I open the door. I imagine some heuristic 
> weighting between interactions with the other animals in the house or 
> those outside the house.
>
> On 7/18/24 18:10, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>> All,
>> 
>> I want to move things along here, but  not sure movement would be.   Our shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals we are in interaction with are conscious.
>> 
>> Jochen seemed to disagree.  So Jochen, and you all, what should we do about that?   I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to resolve it.    Am the only one of us who wants a resolution?
>> 
>> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness.  For me;  the heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an agent, that  A is one of those  that others are.  I am trying to think what sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience.
>
> -- 
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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